Democratic events such as elections and referendums turn the people into a disparate mob of isolated individuals, variously dogmatic, detached, angry, alienated, deceived, deluded, antagonistic and apathetic. All manipulated. Few aware.
If the people ever learned how to use democratic events to take collective action, there would be no more democratic events.
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Peter A Bell 
Peter: if a party stuck to its core raison d’être, no one would need to be angry, deluded, dogmatic, detached, et al. You would be voting with confidence that the people you were voting for held the same views as you and would implement their policies, the ones you voted for because that is what it says on the tin. Unfortunately, charlatans, greasy palms, seat polishers and robotic yes-men and women replace your elected candidates as in the film, The Bodysnatchers’. Before you know it, you are running away from them like a bat out of hell, to quote our friend, Meatloaf. In the SNP/Green case, you can include paraphiliacs and fetishists among the roll of the undead. As in the examples I gave (Hitler, Stalin, etc., people went on voting for them after it had become obvious that they were exceedingly dangerous, thus reaping what they had sown – usually, in the killing fields and the camps). No, it’s not hyperbole and I’m not kidding. This lot of fanatics contain the very same seeds for societal destruction. If we allow them to bring them into an independent Scotland, God help us because no one else will be able to do so.
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Even if you’re correct in every detail, the fate of the SNP cannot be detached from that of Scotland’s cause. The necessary implication being that if we give up on the former we are giving up on the latter as effectively as if we had made the journey from Yes to No. When I said in an earlier reply “That’ll be the end of the independence project then.”, this was not the “facetious sarcastic comment” that some idiot took it to be because… well… because it’s an idiot. The reply was a blunt statement of the reality. As I have stated repeatedly, the fact that the SNP is currently the party of government makes it crucial to Scotland’s cause.
One can disregard this reality. Or one can accept it. One cannot escape it.
Of course, if I am correct about what will happen during and after the next UK general election, by the time the Holyrood election rolls around we might as well all vote Tory for all the difference it’ll make to Scotland’s cause. Obviously, I’d prefer not to be in that position. But being totally realistic, I don’t see any way of avoiding it.
The fault lies entirely with Nicola Sturgeon. When England’s annexation of Scotland is complete and irreversible, no blame should attach to people like yourself who have been so irretrievably alienated by what Sturgeon has made of the SNP that they cannot abide to have anything to do with the party even for the sake of saving Scotland. Take what comfort you may from that.
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Peter, if the SNP do nothing – and nothing is precisely what they will do – how does that affect the timescale? In any case, England will not annexe Scotland, and independence will come suddenly and much sooner than expected. That is why I keep harping on about Ireland. England tried those tactics with Ireland, and, to Scotland’s shame, we helped them. The odious Black and Tans were heavily weighted by Scots. It is in taking independence that it is gained, and it is in your opponent making the fatal mistake that independence is gained. The ‘trans’ bilge may well prove to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. England is terrified that this seeps south, and I can’t blame them. However, many of them blame us, and I can’t blame them for that either. We should have rooted this malignancy out of the SNP at least seven years ago, but, no, “we need to get independence first” said the carrot munchers, with all the insight of a lump of rock. With a bit of luck, this stuff will bring the UK to an end and will get rid of this malignant movement at the same time. With a bit of luck. Or we might become the northernmost part of a Greater England steeped in totalitarianism and ‘trans’ paraphilias and fetishes wherever you look. What will the SNP do about that? Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Rien.
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Describe the process by which “independence will come suddenly and much sooner than expected”. Bearing in mind that, by your own account, that process cannot even start until mid-2026.
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I cannot describe it because I do now know. I have, however, done my homework: the fall of the Soviet Union – independence overnight; the fall of the former Yugoslavia – independence for some parts overnight or within a short period; the fall of the Hapsburg – lots of small, independent countries, the end of Empire. This is how it happens, more often than not. The UK is just as likely to disintegrate very suddenly. Many English people now believe that Sturgeon engineered the GRR so that England could become infected, and are very angry about it. Many Scots blame Westminster for bringing it to Scotland to thwart independence (almost certainly, they didn’t, and are the actual target of this stuff, Scotland and Wales being small and less of a prize). In the end, it could be the very thing that destroys the Union. The countries that have gained independence through diligent, long-term, softly-softly-catchee-monkey tactics are so few in number as to be negligible. Again, the suddenness runs parallel, often, to a swift end. Had the SNP made hay with the SC of the UK’s ruling, we might well be on our way, especially the bit about Quebec. Pure gold. Not even acknowledged. The SNP will do nothing, over and over again. Westminster now has to work out a strategy that will kill this legislation stone dead before it infects England. If it spreads to England, life will hardly be worth living for most of us, anyway, whichever side of the border we are on. What Westminster does, or doesn’t do now, may well spell the end of the Union. What will the SNP have done? Nothing. Again. The SNP, if not an outright collaborationist regime, is chappin on the door. As for the ‘process’ not starting till 2026, who is that down to? Yep, the SNP. Will the SNP call a plebiscitary election in 2026? No. With any luck, they’ll be so wounded by then that they will fall – or, alternatively, we will be independent or well on the way, in any case.
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I am a realist. I cannot be other than that. This does not mean I’m bereft of dreams. It simply means I’m aware that they are dreams.
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You think I’m not a realist, Peter? I’m enough of a realist to know that the SNP is close to oblivion. I’m enough of a realist to suspect that a S35 Order will not be used, but, by God, they’ll think of something much, much more debilitating for Scotland – another SC of the UK ruling, perhaps. The thing is, Peter, that the SNP and Greens have led us down a cul-de-sac. I know women because I am one, and this was the biggest mistake ever. We will punish them. Have you read the anti conversion therapy stuff? I said that we are just on the starting blocks with this stuff. Independence will not get a look in. If we want independence, this stuff has to be rooted out first. It won’t be rooted out without rooting out the Sturgeon cabal and making it plain to the MSP and MPs that their coats are all on a shoogely peg. That message must just be starting to sink in. They will try to bluff their way out of it, but too many now have them bang to rights: get this sorted or they will go. If they go, we will find another party or movement to take us forward. Sure, it might take a wee bit of time, but time is all we have under the SNP/Grens anyway.
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We don’t have “a wee bit of time”.
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We have nothing else under the SNP/Greens, Peter. Time will pass just as it has in the past eight years when the SNP did nothing to stop the UK from doing what it is doing. Eight long years of time passing.
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This attitude takes absolutely no account of what the British state intends to do with whatever time is given to them. Whatever the SNP has done or failed to do over the past eight years, I am not prepared to flush Scotland’s cause down the toilet just to spite them.
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It has nothing to do with spite, Peter, and everything to do with survival. If we do not do something about the SNP, we will be thrown headfirst into a totalitarian state; if we do nothing about the British State, we will end up as the northernmost part of the UK. How is the SNP/Green coalition going to prevent that? It can’t and won’t. How can we force them to do something? We can’t and won’t. Either way, we end up in a totalitarian state. You’ll forgive me, Peter, if neither option sounds good to me. Ergo, I have to choose after giving it considerable thought. After considerable thought, I have come to the conclusion that the SNP must go before we can even think of turning our attention to fighting against the takeover of Scotland by the British State. The SNP/Greens will only hasten that takeover as they have done for the past eight years. I understand that you, as a man, feels little threat from this bullshit that passes for policy, but, having studied Queer Theory, I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that we are just at the beginning. Having studied a great deal of the ‘trans’ movement, I feel sure that totalitarianism is a dead cert along the way. Laws will require to be promulgated and existing laws will require to be brought down to facilitate Queer Theory’s endgame. Now, I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that England and the Tories do not want this crapolo any more than we do, so they will have to face down the SNP/Greens at some point. They won’t use a S35 Order, I think. Too controversial and confrontational. Although I may well be wrong and Sunak will show a bit of guts. If it goes to the SC of the UK, the SG will have to defend it, that is, defend throwing all Scottish children, women and girls under the bus. That’s the theory. On the other hand, they might decide to let it stand and the Scottish legislation will seep through to the whole of the UK and they avoid a confrontation with Stonewall, the kiddies champion, and a confrontation with the SG. In which case, for me, it’s a heads I win, tails you lose situation. As I said on another thread on your blog, the mass of the people always have to catch up in their own time, ad, sometimes, quite often, really, that is just too late. We have been shafted by Holyrood and shafted by Westminster. To be honest, I’m past being able to tell the difference.
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To answer the specific question, if the SNP/Scottish Government does nothing then this inevitably means nothing will be done before the next UK general election. You may be prepared to just cross your fingers and hope that the outcome of that election does imply what I expect it will. I’m not much of a gambler. And the stakes do seem rather high.
I wrote somewhere recently that the bromide about nothing being impossible is as vacuous as such bromides tend to be. A great many things are impossible. Changing sex comes to mind as an example. There are, however many things that we may safely treat as if they were impossible because the possibility of them happening is so vanishingly small. There is also a smaller subset of things that we MUST treat as possible and even inevitable because the cost associated with them happening outweighs the remoteness of the chances of them happening. The British state’s effective annexation of Scotland is one such thing.
We know for a fact that preserving the Union is a first order priority for the British state. We have every reason to believe this will be a significant issue in the next UK general election campaign with all the British parties vying to be, in the perception of the voters who matter to them, the most determined to not only save the Union from the present threat but to secure it in perpetuity. We know also that they have the power to do this. The Union gives them that power.
So, I’m wondering by what logic it could be argued that we needn’t treat the restoration of Scotland’s independence as a matter of the greatest urgency. As I’ve already said, whether you or anyone else intend to vote for the SNP in any future Holyrood election is totally irrelevant as whatever the British intend to do to secure the Union will have been done by then. As I warned repeatedly in the run-up to the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, it was probably the last ever election to the Scottish Parliament as we know it. Either it would be the parliament of independent Scotland, or it would be the dmmy sitting on Alister Jack’s lap.
If we regard the constitutional issue as a matter of the utmost urgency that necessarily implies that will have to be the present Scottish Government that acts. All the signs are that it has no intention of acting. Essentially our disagreement comes down to whether we simply accept that the SNP/Scottish Government will do nothing and trust Scotland’s future to the likes of Alister Jack; or, as I urge, we make an all-out, last-ditch effort to force the SNP/Scottish Government to act. We have nothing to lose by making this effort. We have everything to lose if we don’t.
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A year ago, even six months ago, I might have agreed about the annexe of Scotland, Peter. You don’t grab the coat off the back of the plague victim. You ensure that you can safety remove it, bury him and then sanitise it for future use. That is why Westminster must act on the GRR before they even think of touching Scotland with a bargepole. The anti conversion therapy proposed legislation is proof positive that Scotland will be turned into a totalitarian state in order to pander to this bilge and its proponents’ demands. England – and Westminster’s – biggest effort now must be to protect themselves against this plague that has infected Scotland. It will take time to bury us and sanitise our effects. Does the effort required to annexe Scotland outweigh the fear of this contagion? I’d say not. Many English people now want Scotland set adrift to fester in its own ‘trans’ pus. Even if the dolts up here do not realise that this is set to overturn the entire Western system of democratic accountability, Westminster does. Why do you think we are the ones with the foot on our neck and they own the foot? If you listen to Westminster on this issue, the brave ones are far more and the truth is allowed to be said. That is precisely why Scotland and the SNP were chosen as the vehicles for this stuff: we are a pushover. Mugs.
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Peter, it is not ‘what Sturgeon has made of the SNP’. That culpability lies directly at the feet of the SNP membership past and present, they facilitated and continue to facilitate Sturgeons lack of accountability to the electorate who placed HER Party in power.
It is what STURGEON has done to OUR COUNTRY that has poisoned any further belief in the SNP as the genuine standard bearer and driver of Scotland’s pursuit of Independence. The abject surrender to the pseudo Independence Green Party and the biology deniers therein has left Scotland’s women and society in a very dark place. Both votes SNP cemented that firmly in favour of ‘woke’ policy over Independence and an undue balance of unionist party MSPs.
What we cannot escape Peter is the ‘reality’ of Sturgeon as a CHEAT and a LIAR, she has well documented form on both counts. Scotland’s future cannot be jeopardised by her continuing in office and failing to deliver what HER party was elected to do.
No one but no one can take ANY comfort from that state of affairs. Scotland on the other hand would take ‘GREAT COMFORT’ if the so called ‘good people’ within the SNP would find the BALLS to challenge Sturgeon POLITICALLY.
Sturgeon compromised as she clearly is in her association with the Green Party is the WEAKEST LINK in Scotland’s quest for Independence.
Remove the WEAKEST LINK and forge a BROAD ALLIANCE with GENUINE Independence supporting groups. SNP YOU HAVE THE FLOOR!!
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We are in total agreement about the culpability of the SNP membership. I have frequently made this point. And I have accepted my share of the blame. We trusted to much.
What you say about the need for some sort of internal rebellion within the SNP is fine as a bit of wishful thinking. There’s a lot preventing it being more than that. Firstly, there is not the merest hint of an indication that any such rebellion is on the cards. On the contrary, the membership still seems mesmerised by Sturgeon. Think of how many times it has seemed as if she has finally gone too far. Things that shock many of us don’t even seem to impinge on the awareness of party members. Or, for that matter, the general public. Her approval ratings are still amazing for someone who has held the top job as long as she has.
Even if there was a desire to remove Sturgeon, the internal workings of the party are now so tightly controlled it is extremely difficult to see how this could be achieved. Conference, which is where the matter would have to be decided, is more strictly choreographed than any Scottish Ballet production. Which itself acts as a deterrent. Nobody wants to be the leader of a failed coup. They tend not to fare well.
Then there is the matter of who would replace her and whether there would be any discernible difference. I think we can be sure Sturgeon’s successor has already been chosen. If she had a son or daughter, doubtless they’d be in the frame. But it is sure to be someone she trusts with her ‘legacy’.
And it doesn’t alter what the Yes movement must do. If there is to be a challenge to Sturgeon then those contemplating it would have to know they had substantial backing among Yes activists. They are only going to be assured of this by way of mass demonstrations. We keep coming back to this. Nothing will change without a massive show of popular demand for change. Making that happen remains the problem.
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Peter , given the above admission by yourself that there is no chance of insurrection either by the SNP membership or – even less – from SNP MPs & MSPs , and I agree that is correct , what would be the point of giving them another 5 years in which to not only do nothing of any consequence vis-a-vis Independence , also to mount no meaningful resistance to the further encroachment of the Union into Scottish affairs ?
If one possible answer is that maintaining even a pretty much worthless SNP in power is better than seeing a Unionist Party take control of Holyrood , I’d have to say – at one point – I would have agreed with that proposition .
But this was before the Sturgeon SNP/Greens embarked on an electoral suicide mission and starting inflicting lunatic policies the overwhelming majority of Scottish residents neither asked for nor want , and which will have lasting deleterious effect on our country . I honestly believe they must be stopped before they bring-in even more demented policies , which they certainly intend to – witness the quasi-Fascist implications of these ” anti-Conversion Therapy ” proposals .
Whatever the polls say now , there will be an electoral reckoning for the SNP at some point for what it’s doing to Scotland ; our dilemma is that when that reckoning occurs the biggest casualty will be the very idea of Independence itself . The imperative must be to disassociate / decouple Independence as an aspiration from THIS SNP ; if not , I fear the entire enterprise may be mortally wounded
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They will require to be wounded in the GE, with only enough blood drawn to set them in a panic and, perhaps, get rid of the Sturgeon cabal. When the SE comes along, it will be for real, and they need to be brought down – not out of any spite for the GRR, but because they and the Greens will destroy Scotland otherwise. If we want to conserve independence for a future bid, we need to trans-fer our votes to ALBA, ISP or another party that can bring forward our case to the UN. There is no chance that the SNP will bring in a referendum, plebiscitary election or anything else. We might wish that they would bring the government down themselves and initiate an election before then, but they can’t do that without the Greens. The Greens will not allow them to veer away from full implementation of Queer Theory and its implementation will require more and more draconian laws, and for that, the SNP must continue to govern, just as that parasitic spider keeps its wasp/bee host alive until the young hatch, when the young devour the still-living zombie wasp/bee.
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“…If we want to conserve independence for a future bid…”
What bid? What future?
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The bid we should have made any time in the past eight years? The dystopian future into which the SNP/Greens have cast us all?
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You give the impression that you don’t care what happens to Scotland’s cause so long as you can blame the SNP. Either that or you genuinely believe the British state is going to develop a democratic conscience over the next few months.
The third possibility is that you simply don’t comprehend what the British are in the process of doing. You fail to comprehend that there will be no “future bid”. It’ll be all over by 2026. Or at least, that’s what we must assume if we aren’t minded to gamble the entire nation on the British Nationalists losing the next UK general election. Which is vanishingly unlikely given that they are ALL British Nationalists!
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I supported he SNP from age 13 to around three years ago., Peter. As for Scotland’s cause, I was born into and brought up on Scottish nationalism, although I came to the SNP on my own. Blaming the SNP? I now care so little about the SNP that, if they disappeared tomorrow, I would barely raise an eyebrow. Frankly, I want those treacherous b******s out, although I don’t expect it to happen any time soon. The British State? I care nothing for the British State either. It will do what it has always done. If we don’t have the balls to do what we should do, then that’s that, isn’t it? Your third option, Peter, is beneath you. You know perfectly well that I understand what the BS is up to. Even if they do absorb us to all intents and purposes, why should that end our fight for independence? Other countries have been in far worse circumstances and had the balls to get up and fight back. No, I don’t blame anyone but us. I tried to warn that the GRR had to be defeated and the baleful influence of ‘trans’ removed before independence could get off the ground again, but all I got in return was: it can all wait till after independence; it’s a distraction. Really? Nah. Only the carrot munchers believed that and the ones who were quite prepared to throw women and girls, not to mention children, under the bus for the ever-dangling, non-existent lure of the false dawn of an independence that was not even on the SNP/Green agenda – in reality. Independence will come, Peter, and I believe sooner than you think, but it will not come via the SNP or the Greens, but in spite of them.
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Aye Peter I think I can safely take from that comment ; the SNP are no longer a democratically run organisation accountable to the membership of that party. The membership are not so much “mesmerised” rather coerced into following the blatant disregard for democratic principle as espoused by the Sturgeon Brigade ensconced within the Citadel, Bute House, supported in this by a majority of SNP MSPs who are only there tae dae whit thair telt.
The recent passage of the GRR Bill showed that there are a principled few showing dissent, certainly not a rebellion but sufficient to illustrate Sturgeons position is NOT rock solid. Sturgeons “approval ratings” are only what the media influencers present them as. Ask the women of Scotland specifically how they rate Sturgeon following her decision to deny them AND their daughters their right to safe spaces in favour of giving access to predatory males, a different profile will emerge.
If the SNP lay membership and elected representatives continue to support the lack of democratic accountability within that organisation they are paving the way to political oblivion as a credible vehicle for Scotland’s drive towards Independence. As for Sturgeons “legacy” in Health, Education and Energy only a fool and a narcissist would associate in that trilogy of FAILURE TO DELIVER!
“YES” the challenge to Sturgeon and her failed stewardship must be implemented and it must be a sustained campaign within the precincts of HOLYROOD on days when that assembly is convened. Marching through towns and cities at weekends has relatively no impact on MSPs ability tae keep thair heid’s doon.
STURGEON & co NEED TAE KEN IN NAE UNCERTAIN TERMS WE ARE OAN THAIR CASE WI NAE INTENTION O’ GIE’N UP UNTIL THEY DELIVER OR STEP ASIDE!!
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You’re right Peter, we have to take a firm grip of our noses and make common cause with independistas of different kinds until this nation is fully restored to a proper sovereign state .
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I think that is what I said, Brian. When and if the SNP deigns to ally itself with other independistas, then I will vote for independence. I will not vote for the SNP alone because: a) they will never, ever bring in independence; b) because they have lied too many times.
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“When and if the SNP deigns to ally itself with other independistas…”
Like the Scottish Green Party, for example?
As things stand, we must assume the SNP will be the party of government for at least another eight years. If, as you say, “they will never, ever bring in independence”, that’s almost a decade before there’s even the p ossibility of starting the process of restoring independence. You better be right about the British state having no intention to secure the Union for all time. An assumption which seems to be founded on nothing more than wishful thinking. It certainly doesn’t take account of anything we know about the British state. Or anything the British political elite has been saying and doing over the last decade or two. They say they intend to preserve their ‘precious’ Union at all costs. You suggest they’re not that bothered. Who to believe?
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The Green party is not an independista party, Peter. It wears the coat, but the knickers are not there underneath.
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It’s independentista
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Is it? I think it’s independist, Alex is it not, not independentist? I think it’s independista, in Spanish, which translates as independist, in English. Could be wrong. Happy to be corrected.
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https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/spanish-english/independentista
Why not go for Patriot like the Americans in their struggle for independence
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Not bothered, Alex.
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Reblogged this on Ramblings of a now 60+ Female.
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Independentista
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This is it Peter, the road map out of this rancid union, quite honestly it will boil down to this route once all the talking stops.
Courtesy of Craig Murray.
“The UK Supreme Court was quite right within the narrow confines of UK domestic law. Plainly the Union of England and Scotland is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act of 1998, and the Scottish Parliament could not hold a referendum on it in terms of that Act.
But UK domestic law is entirely irrelevant. The Kosovo Opinion of the International Court of Justice makes crystal clear that the domestic law of the state being seceded from, is not the determining factor as to whether a secession is illegal.
Whereas the reliance by the UK Supreme Court on the criteria of the Federal Court of Canada in the Quebec judgment, over fifty years old and superseded by the cold hard fact of over 23 non-colonial secessions since, is simply laughable.
But while the right of self-determination of peoples in international law is crucial in the case of Scotland, and while Scotland undoubtedly qualifies as a “people” because it is a long established historic nation with its own legal system, culture and institutions, there is one overwhelmingly important criterion for recognition grounded in pure realpolitik.
It was long accepted as the only criterion for recognition that a state had factual, practical control of its own territory. That position has become softened by more principled considerations since the second world war, but the actual control of the territory claimed remains the most important factor in gaining international recognition.
Why did Catalonia fail where Slovenia, Kosovo and the Baltic states succeeded?
Because realpolitik rules in practice, and the Slovenians, Balts and Kosovans had obtained actual control on the ground of the land they claimed. The Catalans had not.
Physical control is not a sufficient condition for recognition – see the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus – but in effect it is a necessary condition.
The UK Establishment will never agree to Scottish Independence. Scotland’s resources are far too valuable to them. Scotland has to declare Independence unilaterally, and take it.
It is no use doing this like Catalonia, where the Spanish civil guard and judiciary effectively wiped out the nascent state before it could breathe.
A Scottish government, whether arising from the Scottish Parliament or from another body, needs in declaring Independence to ensure it has practical control of Scotland.
That means that the organs of the state have to acknowledge the Scottish state. All taxes collected must go to Edinburgh, not to Westminster. The judiciary must apply Scottish laws and not Westminster ones, where they conflict, and specifically apply all new laws post the Declaration of Independence. The police must answer only to Scottish authorities. Ultimately so must the military stationed in Scotland.
At the time Independence is declared, immediate action must be taken to ensure all civil servants, judges, police and military take an oath of loyalty to the people of Scotland and its new government, and renounce any previous loyalty to Crown and to UK political institutions. Anybody refusing must be summarily dismissed from their positions.
We have the example of Catalonia before us. We also have the example of Egypt’s only ever democratically elected leader, President Morsi, who died horribly in jail after being overthrown by a CIA coup because he failed to take the elementary precaution of dismissing and imprisoning all the military regime’s corrupt judges. He should have learnt from Fritz Bauer.
Let us not make those mistakes.
Ultimately, it boils down to this.
1) Westminster will never agree to Scottish Independence.
2) Scotland therefore has no option but to declare Independence unilaterally.
3) Any independent state must be prepared to defend itself by physical force from foreign attack. So must a newly declared Independent Scotland.
4) All who refuse to serve an Independent Scotland must then be removed from all organs of the state.
5) Once an Independent Scotland has physical control of its territory and resources, international recognition will soon follow. Brexit has completely changed the political atmosphere with regard to the crucial attitude of the European Union to London’s government.
Not to mention that London’s government is an international laughing stock.”
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/01/trains-mostly-planes-and-automobiles-part-5/
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